How about this for Cardinals Folly?

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Nick
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How about this for Cardinals Folly?

Post by Nick » Sun 8 Nov, 2009 23:23:13

This stands a good chance I think http://www.hoptoncourt.co.uk/

Hopton court is a stones throw from the Peacock Inn at Tenbury Wells, (if you are very good at throwing stones)and has extensive Gardens and also produces and sella selection of wines. I can not see it being any where else. The nearest large town is Kidderminster, and with the Peacok Inn within striking distance it ticks all the boxes There is also a long walk through herbaceous borders to a Victorian style greenhouse, and a coach house nearby. Check it out.
Last edited by Nick on Sun 8 Nov, 2009 23:34:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Nick » Sun 8 Nov, 2009 23:32:03

Thats clinched it! The Peacock used to be a coaching Inn and has raftered rooms and wood paneling and great food. Check it out
http://www.dinewithus.co.uk/peacock-inn
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?sourceid= ... CAoQnwIwAA

Click on the photo for more interior shots.

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Post by Stevie P » Mon 9 Nov, 2009 14:20:57

Thanks Nick,
This certainly seems more like the type of place DW was writing about but does this mean that Cardinals Folly (which was less than a mile away from The Peacock is also in Tenbury Wells?? Do I still send details to The Kidderminster papers for a place thats probably not there??? Or try the Tenbury papers first.
I wiil try to check the Tenbury Wells venue out asap though as it certainly fits the bill.

Steve

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Post by ken68 » Mon 9 Nov, 2009 22:07:34

it does look promising.
have just looked on amazon i see lost continent is due for release in the in jan next year.

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Post by Nick » Mon 9 Nov, 2009 23:40:57

Hopton Court is near Kidderminster but the Peacock is nearTenbury. I would imagine DW altered the distances to suit the story. Hopton Court is also near a small village which looks good too. I bet DW spent some time in the area, and opted for these two places to become his Pride and Folly. If you look on Google Maps, you get a good idea of the gardens as well. By the way Hopton also still offers archery. A neat tansfer from Folly to Pride for that one is not beyond the bounds of DWs literary licence

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Post by Nick » Mon 9 Nov, 2009 23:52:51

Wow!! Reckon this is it!. The nearest Pub to Hopton court is the Crown. you can walk to it. Geuss what. It has an extensive garden that leads to a wood. Now it's not too much of a leap to swipe the Peacock name from the Tenbury pub and the archery fron Hopton court and bullseye, we have Cardinals Folly and the Pride of Peacocks. Check it out

http://www.crownathopton.co.uk/

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Post by Stevie P » Wed 11 Nov, 2009 19:16:39

Well done Nick. This certainly looks like the sort of place it ought to be. I'll do what I can to get over there. Not quite sure when yet as Ill have to chat my other half 'Ann' and my son to do another Peacock trip as they'll be horrified at the thought of another iffy pub. They'll be pleasantly surprised by the look of it.

This pub (unlike the other) does look seductive, Charles.

In the meantime I'll hold fire with the 'Kidderminster Shuttle' pending visits.

I hope 'The boss' dosn't want me to jump over a stream carrying her. I could be off work for weeks.

Excellent sleuthing Sherlock.

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Post by Alan » Tue 17 Nov, 2009 11:46:56

Well, guys, I guess someone has to play devil's advocate here - which is pretty apt for a DW site I suppose.

When writers create a place - or for that matter, a character - they don't necessarily base it entirely on a single source. It is more than probable that Cardinal's Folly is a composite, based on a ruined abbey he once saw in one place, a stately home he saw in a magazine, a friend's library, and that he arbitrarily placed it in Kidderminster as that was convenient for the too-ings and fro-ings that took place in the car chase in "The Devil Rides out".

I really can't swallow that there is one special place that is the "real" CF, any more than a "real" Richard Eaton or Gregory Sallust existed. It's pretty common practice, for writers of fiction, to make things up... One might even say it's a prerequisite for the craft!

If I were DW, doing the vital scene in "Devil" I'd be more likely to get on and get the story down on paper while the juices were flowing, rather than spend six months researching some real place and subtly changing its details. "The Pride of Peacocks" is the sort of "typical name for an inn" that might pop into his head, and the name "Wilkes" is a good stolid British name that would occur to any writer that wanted a typical English hotelier. He might equally have had the scene take place at the "Green Lion" with its landlord, "Jackson", or have the Eatons live in Cornwall (and the psychic defence of Simon happen at Glastonbury, instead of Stonehenge) and our researchers would be off on a totally different tack.

Sorry to kill the romance, but I have to speak as I find. I bet this makes me unpopular, though :cry:

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Post by Stevie P » Tue 17 Nov, 2009 13:16:17

Alan,

You are quite possibly/probably right. I could argue all the reasons why CF and The PoP were named after a real places but at the end of the discussion we still won't know.
Nicks recent suggestion for the location's sound good but if it turns out to be a dead end do we extend it to Hereford, Worcester etc
The question is, "Is it worth pursuing or have I got more chance of winning the lottery" ..............

I don't know the answer to that one either..

PS. Its good to hear your views. You could never be unpopular!! :)

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Post by Alan » Wed 18 Nov, 2009 14:26:01

LOL, thanks for saying I could never be unpopular. You're no judge of character, I'm pleased to say...

As to whether or not this line is worth researching, I still say a resounding yes, (a) because I could be wrong (it's been known, :D ), and (b) because the search may in itself reveal a lot of interesting DW facts.

btw after remarking there was no "real" Gregory Sallust or Richard Eaton I remembered that Simon Aron was actually based on a friend of DW's... so maybe......

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Post by Charles » Thu 19 Nov, 2009 23:36:12

Personal opinion ...

I tend to go with Alan in thinking that Cardinals Folly is a composite, but I am nevertheless 1,000% behind Steve's researches because (a) you can never entirely discount the possibility that a 'real' Cardinals Folly exists, (b) as Alan says, the search itself may throw up a host of hitherto unknown DW 'facts', and (c) because the journey is worthwhile for its own sake. Steve is becoming quite bored with my telling him how much I enjoyed the story of his taking his family into a decidedly 'iffy' pub !

Also, if the car chase is 80% accurate ... and thanks to Steve's researches and my quick recce on the ground I believe it is, other descriptions may be too.

A parting thought ... and just to show that Steve may well have not only many laughs along the way, but also the last laugh .... everyone mocked Schliemann when he went off to discover Homer's Troy ... but the laughs turned to amazement when he actually found it !

Keep looking for Troy, Steve ... we're all solidly behind you and willing to help you in any way we can ...
Charles

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Post by duncanpaul17 » Fri 20 Nov, 2009 20:33:01

Steve,

Although sited in Kidderminster in the book, the building it is based on, if not a composite, may actually exist elsewhere.

However, that said, I do think you should continue, the lead given from Nick looks quite promising, and if this does not turn out to be the place
perhaps some of us could go off at tangents to find the source of DW's inspiration.

Keep up the good work

Duncan

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Post by Nick » Mon 23 Nov, 2009 21:41:18

I think the reason why Cardinals Folly is so compelling is because DW's description is so precise. No other venue is described in as much detail, including DeRichleaus flat, or Simons House in St Johns Wood. Kidderminster is not the obvious place to put Cardinals Folly, in a drama that is set in the South of England, I would have less faith in an existing original if DW had placed it in the Wiltshire area conveniantly near Stone Henge ,Chilbury and Hungerford. Finally in the Documentary Letter to Posterity, is was outlined that DW was one of the first writers to incorporate real places and charactors into his stories, from Herman Goering and Hitler through to Rasputin, and charactors stay at the Berkley and Claridges. When DW tried to disguise famous names (Such power is Dangerous) he failed miserably (Percy Piplin-Charlie Chaplin) Cardinals Folly is based on a real building I will wager, and if DW says Near Kidderminster then thats where it is, unless DW decided to break the mould for just this particular venue.

K R Cope

Post by K R Cope » Tue 24 Nov, 2009 18:35:39

I'd go along with Nick's view on Cardinals Folly...when I first read DW some 30+ years ago, I was struck by many descriptions being of actual places/people, often little disguised if at all.

But, more particularly, from the first time I read TDRO, I felt that Cardinals Folly could be based on a real house, not least because the descriptions are in considerably more detail than is necessary to support the narrative. As Nick infers, this contrasts with the briefer descriptions of the Dukes flat and Simon's house, and even (IIRC) the description of Grove Place in the Roger Brook stories. (I'd have to refresh my memory on the latter, it's a very long time since I read whichever book it's in....and was it called Grove House in the book?)

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Post by Stevie P » Wed 25 Nov, 2009 07:54:29

Thanks very much for the feedback on this subject. I will dust off the lance and get my trusty steed ready for another lunge at the windmills. I've already spoken to the 'boss' regarding a trip to Hopton court and the 'Other Peacock' that Nick outlined at the beginning of this topic. So, in the not too distant future (if it ever stops raining) I'll restart the search for the octagonal library and Wilkes.

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