Aleister Crowley

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Toohey
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Aleister Crowley

Post by Toohey » Wed 3 Oct, 2007 08:34:15

Now there are a fair few references to this fella in the black magic stories of DW & his maxim, do what thou will shall be the whole of the law.

If you’re a skeptic like me you can’t help but smile as the warnings that DW wrote in his Black magic books. I love the I never inhaled tone where he tells us he has never participated in any magical ceremony black or white. Not really believing in ‘magic’ black, white or the Paul Daniels variety I did borrow a book written by Crowley to see what it was all about. I was very disappointed as once you get beneath all the jargon & terms you’re really just left with alchemy. Using the will to turn something into something else. Which is absurd. Crowley was just a con-man so it was good to read he died alone and in poverty, a fitting punishment for such a crook.

I think the attraction for Black magic is that dancing around a fire, high on drugs and copulating will obviously attract a few. But despite all the copulating and rituals they perform the Satanists have never managed to produce a ‘creature’ (avatar?)that was born in To the Devil a daughter.

The evidence is not very strong that the occultists are either as evil or as powerful as their enemies say they are.

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Post by Nick » Wed 3 Oct, 2007 12:15:19

I would reccomend that you read some of the works by Hans Holtzer (Spelt correctly I think!)
Does Witchcraft work yes it does, is it all evil no its not. Do Satanist still practice yes they do, are they dangerous for the most part no but there are a few who make the hair stand up on your head (believe me I've met them!) Do Wheatley's invisible forces exist-yes they do, are you able to harness them for good or evil yes you can.
I have not fallen for any DW propaganda on Witchcraaft or Satanism, but I will say that he led me on to a serious study of the subject. I one looks at Christianity as a comparable religion, the symbols and rituals are quite suprisingly Pagan.
Wheatley became aware of this as his researches deepened into the occult and I remember in one of his Black magic books he was prompted to suggest that the 'Old Religion' had become corrupt and simple nature worship had become an evil cult etc etc.
It's worth remembering that far from an ancient cult Satanism is a modern religion, with its roots firmly with Crowley. Some blame the Catholic Church for its sexual repression and threat of hell. The thinking is that how can you be afraid of Hell if you are already a part of it? I believe DW ideas were confused, but I would never dismiss his warnings out of hand.
Is the Cat now among the Pigeons or have I said too much?

Toohey
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Post by Toohey » Wed 3 Oct, 2007 13:09:35

No, not at all.

Thanks for the reply. If I can find any works by him I'll give them a read.

Friad I'm just a skeptic and don't believe in god, the devil, heaven or hell, telekenis etc.

Perhaps I just put too much belief in science to take all that seriously.

But I do love black magic fiction but just feel that's where it all belongs. On the page of a novel.

Maybe I'm just cynical and feel that satanism is just an excuse for some charasmatic individuals to get it on with some gullible women. It's all about power to me and if you can use Satan to gain power over individuals then there will be plenty who will try. The idea that satanists can perform rituals which beneift them with special powers etc is just too much for me to believe in.

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Post by Stevie P » Wed 3 Oct, 2007 17:43:56

I, like Nick became quite heavily involved with a group of like minded people and studied much of the work that Crowley would have looked at with the likes of Mathers, Yeats and Blavatsky - Alchemy, Quabalah, Astrology, Geomancy and so on. Not for any evil purpose I would add but in a effort to learn moreof whats out there.
Some of it was very heavy going but fascinating none the less. Some of these people certainly had something 'mystical' for want of a better word, about them.

This pusuit also made me look at the Pagan backgrounds and you do start to accept the natural way of life as was lived well before religeous dogma dominated the lives of many people.
Reading between the lines I think DW had Pagan tendancy's as well as a belief in reincarnation.

Crowley may have been a bit loopy to say the least but he made people look of alternatives.

Toohey, you are very wise to be sceptical, I am too, but the idea of Magick (whatever colour) is fascinating.
Ultimately it is down to the energy that the individual(s) possess(es). If you believe in something strongly enough the chances of it happening are strong. Or do we just imagine it to be so.

As David Bowie sang on Hunky Dory, "I'm closer to the Golden Dawn, immersed in Crowleys uniform of imagery."

If we imagine, we escape. Which we all do in DW's books.

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Post by Nick » Thu 4 Oct, 2007 11:44:23

Interestingly enough one of the books in the library of the occult is entitled Real Magick, by Philip Bonewits (Stop Laughing!!!) It argues the case for occult powers from a completely materialistic point of view. DW points out that he does not agree with all of Bonewits ideas, however the author argues that the invisible forces that DW mentions are pure measurable energy and can be harnessed by any trained individual, but goes on to say that he (like Toohey) does not believe in God-Devil-survival of death.
Only a fool argues against faith but this book may challenge the sceptic. I lent my copy of Real Magick out to a freind and guess what?....moan gibber mumble groan......

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Post by Stevie P » Thu 4 Oct, 2007 12:00:17

I've got the 'Real Magick book' in my bookcase but haven't read it yet. I'll add it to the list of books to read.!!!

There's actually a copy for sale on E bay at the moment (along with 3 other Library of the occult books). It closes in 22 hours if you're interested. i.e 11.00 in the morning of the 5th Oct.

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Post by Toohey » Thu 4 Oct, 2007 12:16:15

Stevie P wrote:I've got the 'Real Magick book' in my bookcase but haven't read it yet. I'll add it to the list of books to read.!!!

There's actually a copy for sale on E bay at the moment (along with 3 other Library of the occult books). It closes in 22 hours if you're interested. i.e 11.00 in the morning of the 5th Oct.
Is it Nicks'?

The library series, can never find these 2nd hand. All I seem to come across are the black magic ones. They must have printed millions of these.

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Re: Aleister Crowley

Post by Hoyo de Monterrey » Wed 10 Oct, 2007 22:21:21

Toohey wrote:I did borrow a book written by Crowley to see what it was all about. I was ery disappointed as once you get beneath all the jargon & terms youÂ’re really just left with alchemy. Using the will to turn something into something else. Which is absurd. Crowley was just a con-man so it was good to read he died alone and in poverty, a fitting punishment for such a crook.
Which is almost exactly what Richard Eaton said of Cagliostro and Eliphas Levi in The Devil Rides Out (look it up).

As Toohey correctly implies, the whole Black (or "White") Magic ethos is fertile soil for the most outrageous charlatans.
"Here's to crime"

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Post by Nick » Thu 11 Oct, 2007 12:08:56

Does anybody remember or even see the televised row between DW and Alex Sanders self styled King of the Witches? I only got to hear about it second hand. I did meet somebody who met Alex Sanders and did not have a good word to say for him, however the Film featuring Sanders Legend of the Witches was fascinating.

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Post by Stevie P » Sat 13 Oct, 2007 11:35:55

Nick,

Ref your comment,

Does anybody remember or even see the televised row between DW and Alex Sanders self styled King of the Witches? I only got to hear about it second hand.[/color]

Do you know when it was? I'll keep eye out for 'Legend of the Witch'

Hoyo/Toohey - How do you copy those text blocks over???


Stevie P

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Post by Jim » Sat 13 Oct, 2007 12:26:28

Stevie P wrote: How do you copy those text blocks over???
See the tiny little "quote" box at the upper right corner of each message? You click that, pick out what you want to copy, and add your text below. (Sometimes I get lazy, and just put the text in brackets:)

<< How do you copy those text blocks over??? >>

Stevie P
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Post by Stevie P » Sat 13 Oct, 2007 13:49:54

Jim wrote:
Stevie P wrote: How do you copy those text blocks over???
See the tiny little "quote" box at the upper right corner of each message? You click that, pick out what you want to copy, and add your text below. (Sometimes I get lazy, and just put the text in brackets:)

<< How do you copy those text blocks over??? >>
Great stuff. Its easy when you know!!!!

Thanks Jim.

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Post by Nick » Mon 15 Oct, 2007 11:59:03

Legend of the Witches is regularly on the Sky Horror channel (Why Horror?)
The row between DW and Sanders would have been 1968 or 69 Iwas about 16 and the Woodstock film was on at the Cinema. No connection but I remeber the conversation was the same day I went to see the film. Peace man!

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Post by Toohey » Mon 15 Oct, 2007 14:21:43

Nick wrote:Legend of the Witches is regularly on the Sky Horror channel (Why Horror?)
The row between DW and Sanders would have been 1968 or 69 Iwas about 16 and the Woodstock film was on at the Cinema. No connection but I remeber the conversation was the same day I went to see the film. Peace man!
I'll order that on DVD if I can. Any comments of the film Nick?

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Post by Nick » Mon 15 Oct, 2007 14:42:59

Yes the whole thing was treated with respect and narrated as a documentary. The so called Black Mass was fascinating and almost moving! This may sound amazing but it was a mixture of Christian and Pagan rites none of which bore the remotest resemblance to anything in DW. The film was promoted for its nudity and shown at the less solubrious cinemas in the 1970's along with some other boring soft porn movie (You know the sort of thing) If you have strong Christian beliefs you will of course be shocked, however as a piece of folklore it leaves the ridiculous Church of Satan in the same class as the soft porn films.
I have no desire or intention of becoming involved in any Sanders style movement, however as a religion I can see how some people may be drawn in, (including as I have heard a famous Folk Duo who provided music regularly at Sanders meetings)
It's worth watching. I have no idea if it made it to DVD.

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